Yet HS is the best option for manufacturing / research / invention and having a relativity risk free good stable isk earning base.

This has nothing to do with location. He's talking about industry, not trade hubs.

Nobody is complaining about risk, the issue is that we have to put in a ton of effort in order to make industry even somewhat decent.

Unless you are war decced you can travel with little risk again when collecting your PI (if in HS) or mining your minerals or transporting your goods.

you can always pay somebody like Red Frog to haul your stuff for you.

the fact that the main trade hubs are in highsec has nothing to do with why nullsec industry is terrible

So what? This has nothing to do with industry. We don't need customers and trade to feed our war machine, we need materials and production.

You're talking about the trade hubs as though they're something set in stone, like they don't fluctuate or anything.

Meanwhile, Rens is slowly being eaten away by Hek, and only a few people are really noticing.

Hell, Yulai used to be a trade hub. It used to be THE trade hub.

No, there's a tremendous market advantage for doing industry where you actually have the slots and production capabilities of highsec.

Are you completely unaware that selling things in nullsec generally leads to greater profit margins, and depending upon what you sell the trade volume isn't all that low either?

340 slots in a fully upgraded outpost is nowhere close to what we need. You don't know what you're talking about.

LOL

So now every alliance has to be Goonswarm Federation in order to have a decent industrial base?



Where do you think people lose all of this stuff? Highsec? To what?

IIf this dream of yours were possible, someone would have done it by now.

If you think I'm wrong, prove it. Go do it yourself.

This is basically what highsec stations are, a handout. You can't compete with free.

I think there's more to industry than that. What industry makes things just for the sake of making things? They make things to sell for a profit. They sell these things in a market. They sell these things at a rate that maximizes their profits preferably so their Q3 earnings are greater than in the previous quarter.

It is harder

more expensive

and slower to manufacture things in nullsec.

You really don't understand why buying something instantly is faster than making it yourself?

There is no activity that will not be hampered by constant attrition

It doesnt make industry impossible, it makes it harder

I really do think you're trolling at this point.

Why on God's Green Earth would I bother shipping minerals in a jump freighter, then take the time to cook the blueprints myself(in a facility that is vulnerable to attack no less), when I can just buy the finished product?

Cool materials magically appear in Jump freighters and Jump freighters never die, thats good to know

Also; Jump freghters are free to purchase and operate

Then explain yourself. Where do these materials come from?

You avoid answering and turn to insults because you cant give a proper answer.

There is no resource gathering activity in Null that is not at risk from attrition.

Which is at risk from a simple bubble + Interceptor camp unless you are flying T3 in which case you have multiplied the cost to avoid the risk.

Unless you use an interceptor as a scanner, then you are losing cargo capacity

Plus you are inherently at risk while doing your site.


How does this not equate to more attrition?

Also., its a onetime deal if you are using BPOs.

No, I said that thanks to attrition, ALL tasks take longer and are often more expensive and riskier in null

You didnt want to talking about mining, and ratting didnt come up, so I let you choose Scanning, which is probably the single Null-Sec friendliest task you can have.

I was simply pointing out that even at that, the risks are even greater, its very easy to lost a 90m cargo of stuff to a single stealth bomber waiting at a site (thats how I make my money, so I knwo what Im talking about).

Once that Scannign ship is gone, you have to get another, and good luck finding it and the fits in Null

So even when you choose a task that is weighted in your argument's favour, it still stands that you will be operating much more slowly in Nullsec than in high or low. Im not about to argue the merits of the sites themselves as obviously null sitres are inherently better, but ny extention they take longer to do and are more heavily farmed.

But you have to go back to High to get your ship anyway, and the parts to fit it with

Even if they are available up there, the extra difficulty in obtaining the materials to build say for example a Buzzard and the few people doing it means that its a sellers market.

You may as well sell the loot and buy your ship and fit in high and bridge back up, though again, that quite expensive.

You see what Im saying though? The factors that multiply the difference are more than just lines available or anti-Buzzard camps.

Yes, Null sites are profitable, but without mlarge alliance support in one way or another, almost any other activity can be (note: CAN be, ie usually is) extremely expensive in terms of infrastructure, time and/or diplomacy

Usually, the fact that as you are not part of them, they will kill you as soon as see you?

That in all likelyhood they are already importing trimarks from Highsec, if not they are already manufacturing themselves from ratting?

And why on earth would you want to sell in null FOR LESS than you can get in High?

Their tears are delicious!!

Yeah, it's probably pretty painful for them to accept that the people they love to mock and ridicule are in fact needed in the game. They want what we bring, but they don't want us. Derp.

I can't even tell you how tempted I am to run ammo or frequently used T2 modules out to null in a BR and price it twice what it is in highsec. I bet it would sell. The premium attached to convenience! I'm about 23 days from a BR and I just might do that to see what happens. If I can afford the hull, heh.

There is so much sparring going on that is just muddying the water. It might be helpful if the nullsec community can come to some sort of plurality on the central question: Is there a problem with industry in nullsec, and do we want to do something about it?

That is unbelievably dense.

The existence of interruption is not the problem.

It's the fact that there is nothing the inferior economic capacity of nullsec can do better than highsec.

So nothing, absolutely nothing, is worth the interruption.

If highsec were not the elephant in the room, then anything industrial in nullsec might be worth the chance of getting dropped on.


The problem is that player owned industry < NPC owned industry.

There. That's it, the end.

Fortunately I didn't say that. Idk where you inferred it from.



I feel pity for them, typically until I take my safeties off.

The rest of your post is just going off attacking a point I didn't make.

The "interruption" issue has always existed and will always exist, the issue that there is no incentive to continue to put up with those interruptions when you can just go back to HS and earn the same if not more isk.

If you were to introduce something new what ever that something is, that makes it worth while to put with those interruptions, risk, effort

along with an increase in refinery

and manufacturing lines for null sec stations

along with an increase in costs in NPC stations and possibly a reduction in manufacturing lines then the combination of all those things might make it worth while for the industrialist to move out to null to ply there trade.

So do you agree with the suggestion that nerfing resource processing efficiency and the number of manufacturing slots in highsec will make null more attractive to industrialists?

If your answer is yes, then what are your thoughts, expressed multiple times in the thread, that the behavior of many null citizens toward industrialists in highsec have ruined their interest in nullsec?

If your answer is no, then what nerf (if any) do you feel would provide enough incentive to move to Null?

Please tell everybody how you obtain 100% refinery and 300+ manufacturing lines in a player built station. Don't forget to explain the cost and how you accomplish this.

"Therefore, to be effective in null sec production, you not only need a Minmatar Outpost for refining, you also need to upgrade that to level 1 refinery (approximate cost of around 6 or 7 billion ISK if memory serves), and then make sure you have Refining V, Refinery Efficiency V, Specific Skills to IV and at least the 2% implant"

Not much then....

Really, so the cost of 2 stations, lets say 20bil per station, ihub (250mil) and upgrades (500mil in total) say about 40bil to get to something like you have in HS is worth it?

So before you even start mining you would have to spend upwards of 40bil just to get close to a NPC station in HS.

Perfectly balanced :)

Again, trying to do industry in null (and make profit) is like trying to make cars in Antarctica.

Why should they be?

the one where hiring a building and getting something manufactured in the middle of manhattan costs more than seventy cents and a stick of gum?

"nullsec gameplay should mostly involve your capsuleer dying of dysentery" - carebears, 2014

@Pinky

Because it's not about delivery.

The entire argument isn't about delivery, they can do that themselves.

Depends on if you count blowing up and/or stealing their stuff. I nailed a "small highsec indy corp" (as they called themselves) for just shy of a billion isk worth of BPOs in a corp theft early last month.

Oh, and my point is self evident.

no, it doesn't
nullsec is not ~the frontier where manufacturing sucks because REALITY you guys~ it's where you're supposed to be able to make your own place to live
and no **** pirates shoot outsiders we don't want you around

Classic case of how some bratty children cry when they poop in their own sandbox.

What's wrong? Your sandbox is full of poop? So fix it. You have the power to do that. Or you can play in the poop.

industrialists do not get shot

industrialists who are outsiders get shot

christ on a bike

the complaint is not 'people won't deliver stuff from jita'

alliances can deliver their own stuff just fine

e: this was already explained to you. repeatedly.

They can't get over the mental wall of someone making something to actually use it, not to sell it for profit.

Cool.

So, once you do have the skills, go ahead and record your times and payouts and such, including when you have to hide or run from roams, gangs, etc.

Then go do L4s in highsec, and record the same data. Except this time you basically don't have to hide, or run. Ever.

Then tell me which one is a better way to make money.

I see you still misuse the word "tears".

I am simply pointing out huge game imbalances.

[So you tell me, why try to make money in sov null when you will make more in high sec?

Where?

All I have seen is data on isk fausets which is useless for looking into income levels.

Null sec mostly rewards in raw isk while high sec gives most of its reward in LP.

Name them.

The above quote is all the evidence we need to show that you have no arguments and that you are simply desperate to keep your golden egg laying goose.

Only the numbers do show that high sec income is better. CCP are only nerfing null income again as an excuse for the ESS, they said it themselves.

Its not a case of HTFU, its a case of high sec giving the best safety coupled with rewards better than null.

How about building Titans.

What, you can't do that? Too spacepoor? Too low on the food chain? Not enough skillpoints?

Too bad.

Please tell us what gives half a billion isk an hour in null.

Because every line member can build these and sell them to everyone...

What nerf?

Dronelands, not all of null. That area of space has been the most terrible lart of null for years. I also doubt prices will drop by much,PL are far too smart to allow that to happen.

You get pirate ships by either running missions in null for the pirate corps, or by getting BPOs to drop.

You can't get Sansha LP in highsec, for example.

The Sisters of Eve is the only one that can get LP in highsec. It's the only one you don't have to risk anything to get. So it's still head and shoulders above the accessibility of the other pirate factions.

Everyone has access to high sec missions.

Only PL and its renters have access to the dronelands.

Only a highseccer would call parity and game balance a buff to nullsec.

Or would you actually care to discuss the topic?

Apparently it equals a nerf to highsec, by your absurd justifications.

They tipped too hard by making the SOE ships available without blueprints like the rest of the pirate faction ships.

Now they have blueprints just like the rest. But unlike the rest, they can be obtained entirely in highsec. Which means that their existence is still a net buff to highsec.

You're hilarious.

Sisters LP could be obtained in nullsec too. All this does is make Drone Regions less utterly worthless.

Which according to you, is a bad thing... why?

What I said was that it's not "A buff to nullsec, get the pitchforks!".

The end result of the introduction of SOE ships is a net buff to highsec more than to null. Especially since buffing something that was previously worthless under every circumstance shouldn't be a problem for anyone.

You're just bitching to *****.

But adding items to an LP store that didn't have them before isn't a buff?

However much you don't want to back down on the point, the net result is a buff to highsec.

Okay but first we have to restrict it to only 100 people in highsec being able to make isk per nullsec region then your argument holds up

Exactly what I expected, a copy&paste personal attack which doesn't even mention the actual points of a post.
Well, can't expect more from a goon, can we?

Gosh 100 ship losses a day

such slaughter

how do you survive those killing fields?

It clearly is a PvP game. Even mining and trading are forms of PvP

I have a challenge for anyone trying to tell me that null is safer.

Get in an NPC corp, get a freighter, and fly it 5 jumps into null. That's it, 5 jumps there and back. See what happens.

we want the people who reside in nullsec to also be able to make their isk their instead of highsec

Except that you make more in highsec, hence we are in highsec. We're literally forced into highsec.

You just shouldn't be able to make your income in highsec then be able to fight wars in nullsec and at the same time say that your source of income should be untouchable.

When there is no cost associated to living in highsec

http://jestertrek.blogspot.ca/

Peruse some of his posts about the latest CSM Summit.
Everything is heavily NDA'ed, but he makes it clear a game mechanic is changing that is going to anger a lot of people, and that is only a 1st step.

Go back farther about a month to 6 weeks, and buried deep, you will find a post by Jester about how the new direction of Eve is not for everyone who plays now, and they will be left behind.

Add in CCP's crap about the empires and crossing the Rubicon, and it is pretty clear who is losing out here.

Except the bolded part doesn't actually happen and if it did concord would have to be busted first.

No CONCORD is a multinational corporation, so it still holds.

CCP and there economist a'ways say consumption is the engine that drives the EVE virtual economy.

1 sided wage slavery is never "symbioitic".

You didn't make an argument so I take this as you agreeing there is an imbalance that needs to be fixed.

[Do you have an argument or thing you do other than say we're wrong without providing any support?

Only that an imbalance is impacting nullsec play styles and that we want it fixed.

My argument has data behind it, loot at my spreadsheet and look at Stoicfaux's data. Highsec is receiving more reward than nullsec when it comes to mid-range combat PVE.

Okay so you are full of "grr goons,"

You are also wrong, CCP has stated before something a long the lines of people who embrace social interaction are far more likely to stay subbed than those who do not so nerfing cooperation and friend making will hurt the game.

You don't have a counter to what I just said and still don't have an argument so I'm going to take it as you would agree with me except for "grr goons."

I'll wait till you can come back to the point of risk : reward being violated by highsec. This grr goons garbage you've cooked up can go it its own thread.

where the mechanics themselves inherently prohibit large populations in null and thus mechanically force people to not be there.

There are about 130 pages of people making unsupported claims about how much a single individual can earn if not contested.

Where on earth are you getting your information?! That is probably the most ridiculous thing stated so far in this thread.

I'm also the one who provided proof and support my arguments with data. .

Amusing, you've been doing this for the last couple of pages.

I take it you lost since you ran out of arguments and your final stand was to just twist La Nariz' words into something different.

GǪor, to use your vernacular, he Gǣshortened itGǥ to a more pithy version.

By reading what he wrote and responding to it rather than invent your own interpretation and editing it in because you ran out of arguments and lost.

Blatantly false.

So why are you doing it?

Start here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4208523#post4208523

Notice how you keep going off-topic and onto some completely tangential (and horribly misinformed) rant about coalitions. Note how he on multiple occasions tries to get you back on topic. Note how you keep blatantly ignoring the points being made and refuse to offer anything that even remotely resembles an actual counter-argument, instead replacing it with more irrelevancies.

By your own standard, you lost. Multiple times. All he did was shorten your extraneous rant to it's essential core: GÇ£grr goonsGÇ¥.

You weren't. Just read his posts and this time, don't mentally edit them. Just read.

Specifically, the discussion you two were having was about something he repeated over and over again, and which you consistently ignored. You read his posts and spotted it this time, I hope?

So yes, going off on a tangential (and misinformed) rant that has nothing to do with the comparison in question is thoroughly irrelevant; inventing your own interpretation because you ran out of arguments against what he was actually saying means you lost. Multiple times.

Not until you actually take the time to read the posts, no. Have you read them?

GǪconsists of many separate topics. The two of you were having a discussion about one of them before you (very quickly) defected from it and went on an irrelevant tangent. Presumably, you rant out of arguments to respond to what he was saying. I.e. you lost.

Because no, coalitions are not in any way relevant to the discussion the two of you had before you bailed out and replaced what he was saying with something completely different.

Actually what the OP was about was nerfing HighSec.

It became an evaluation of high sec vs. null sec personal income.

If you believe that coalitions play a part in that fine, but you've not adequately drawn a line from one to the other, provided no data to support your suggested premise, and as such it boils down to baseless claims that most are going to interpret, rightly or wrongly, as "grr goons".

horseshit

GǪwhich of course, he didn't say.
Why do you keep editing other people's arguments?

So why did you edit his argument?

No, that's just you inventing things. By saying it was GÇ£horeshitGÇ¥, he's saying that missions and LP can be considered standards of income balance. Since, by the last official count, more than one third of the characters in game ran missions, that's not a particularly odd or unreasonable stance to have.

more fallacious reasoning from 'i don't know what an argument is' pinky hops

Anyone. If you don't think that an activity that more than one third of the characters engage in can be considered a standard, then you are insane.

They simply want to be able to live in Null and stay in Null.

i just want to make this clear

i'm not arguing with you, i'm openly mocking you

GǪand that is the problem, since the stated goal is that the game is supposed to allow it.
The fact that it doesn't right now is the imbalance that is in dire need of a fix.

And ironically enough, I've always been pretty self-sufficient in HighSec.

GǪand for null, that would be the 1% of industry that isn't covered by the self-sufficienty the region has to offer. As long as that 1% in for that one activity is covered by people doing cross-border trading, the rest are supposed to be able to never leave their home (much like how people are able to live in highsec and never leave their home).

And now we get back to the point that we aren't talking about industry, but about sustainable personal income.

Which is quite separate from alliance level industrial activity. Hopefully you know this.

Didn't I even say "alliance level industrial activity"?

There's that reading comprehension thing again.

GǪaside from individual income going to the individual to meet his individual needs, and corp/alliance income going to the corp/alliance to meet corp/alliance needs.

No to mention the distinction between industry and PvE.

Good for you. The distinction is still there and it's still industry and thus not relevant.

Pinky, I respect your opinion and hope you continue to provide it to us. I don't agree with it but respect it nonetheless.

The general idea here is to support your opinion with data. This can be done in many ways. Some have provided DevBlogs. Others has compiled data though independent study. Tippia even blogged regarding her interpretation of data provided from CCP.

If you're goal is just to provide your opinion I think that's great. It enriches the community to hear differing viewpoints. However, if the goal is to sway people to agree with your opinion, you're going to want to get some data to support that opinion.

You can't drop a thesis on the table, without elaboration supported by data, and expect anyone to just agree with it.

Most of the value of the game is in manufacturing. Dr. EyjoG is happy with this because
it means that value is mostly player-driven, even though some value is also being added
from NPC interactions and NPC trades.

Does anyone else find it really funny that Pinky says things like this:



Immediately after saying things like this:



Pinky, if you aren't trolling, your mental condition is now in question.

Name what null sov has in place of missions.

I bet PL can.

Not an individual PvE income stream, so no. Try again.

You can build Titans in HighSec? I think you're going off on one of those tangents Tippia was accusing you of again.

Building titans is not a pve activity. Its not even a combat activity.

So not an individual PvE income stream. Try again.

What you're doing there is kind of like comparing two different jobs based on whether the local lunch restaurant has good chicken or not.

You're deliberately obtuse, I believe.

this is troo

rox oot smarte me allte tyme wen i dool them in mi egg sumer

Rocks don't shoot back.

I think I can help you with this.

Shooting rats in missions is infinite. Infinite missions, infinite rat spawns, etc.

Shooting rocks and putting the "things" in your cargo hold is removing the "things" from the game preventing another player from shooting those "things" - PVP.

Further, if you leave the "things" in your cargo hold you could say it's PVP-lite. But the minute those "things" go on the market or are refined into other "things" and subsequently used to construct other "things" and then you put the "things" on the market, you are competing with other players - PVP

You're absolutely right! Bully for you!

What we're discussing is Method A (Combat PVE) in both HighSec and NullSec.

What you're discussing is a combination of Method A (Combat PVE), Method B (which includes capital construction in one Sec), and Method C (Alliance Level Income) to intentionally or unintentionally cloudy or derail the discussion. ED: At one point you even chose to invoke W-Space which kind of came out of left field.

Maybe it's an ADHD thing which I can certainly relate to but it's exactly the reason I prefer to segment the methods out, so I'm not overly confused or unfocused on the discussion at hand.

[quote=Pinky Hops]If by GÇ£arbitraryGÇ¥ you mean GÇ£mechanically and functionally distinct and descriptiveGÇ¥. The label GÇ£Combat PvEGÇ¥ neatly encapsulates a very clear category of activities and explains in full what it does and how it differs from other methods of making money.

You are once again missing the entire point of the discussion. People in Null can make more money in HighSec than they can in SovNull. The data supports this claim.

What is a Null resident going to do while their Industry jobs are running?

Show us the data.

Again what is being claimed is that NullSec Combat PVE (Anoms) vs. HighSec Combat PVE (L4 Missions) is out of balance in terms of risk : reward.

You are once again missing the entire point of the discussion. People in Null can make more money in HighSec than they can in SovNull. The data supports this claim. They don't want to live in HighSec. They want to live in NullSec. They don't because HighSec is more profitable without the added risk of NullSec. If you can frame your responses with this in mind, you'll see how blatantly irrelevant your tangents have been.

If you want to compare data/relic sites in NullSec with data/relic sites in HighSec, fine. No one is claiming that risk : reward in that comparison is out of balance.

Again what is being claimed is that NullSec Combat PVE (Anoms) vs. HighSec Combat PVE (L4 Missions) is out of balance in terms of risk : reward.

So by that logic we would also include trading in all the empire market hubs as part of that income. In which case there is still an imbalance overall.

I live full-time in HighSec.

If NullSec residents go back to NullSec because they are able to make their ISK there, it means they are not in HighSec ganking miners, ganking freighters, baiting mission runners, but instead are down in NullSec happily making their ISK while we here in HighSec are simply enjoying our game and making less ISK than people in NullSec. Why do you have a problem with that outcome?

That's not what he said.

What he said was that if YOU want to compare EVERY nullsec activity to EVERY highsec activity in terms of ISK/hr, then there is still an imbalance.

My "bias" is living in High Sec space and hoping to just be left the hell alone while I run L4 missions my way, on my time, without any obligations to anyone and to not be enslaved to ISK/hr because I make enough in an hour at work to sub my accounts.

There was only ever one argument. The one you are trying to have with CCP after they corrected the payouts in null. But they're not biting and the rest of us are just pointing out what fools you are.

Mr Epeen

Give me a reason to run anoms for 70 mil when I can run high sec level 4s for over 100 mil.

I agree there should be some sort of determent for having 85% of null blue. Either isk or stat or something reasonable.

Yes, and this is how bluesec ratting actually works (sequence taken from last night).

2014.02.08 14:08:13Bounty Prizes1,474,875.00 ISK3,269,919,993.18 ISK (8 man gang bouncing around my constellation)
2014.02.08 13:48:12Bounty Prizes18,674,031.25 ISK3,268,445,118.18 ISK (taranis)
2014.02.08 13:28:11Bounty Prizes19,284,228.60 ISK3,249,771,086.93 ISK (hound outbound)
2014.02.08 13:08:10Bounty Prizes16,666,919.70 ISK3,230,486,858.33 ISK (hound inbound tried to figure out where I was)
2014.02.08 12:48:09Bounty Prizes23,066,357.20 ISK3,213,819,938.63 ISK (gurista hubs - flat out)
2014.02.08 12:28:09Bounty Prizes23,368,100.00 ISK3,190,753,581.43 ISK (gurista hubs - flat out)
2014.02.08 12:08:08Bounty Prizes17,221,066.10 ISK3,167,385,481.43 ISK (warmup - learning the hubs - fit changed again and the scripts give you a lot of things to screw up)

At 23m/tick in the gurista hubs, I'm rolling along at 70m/isk hr, and this is the encounter with a viable escalation, but as you can see, its 1 step forward, and 1 step back into the pos pretty quick.

Note that I can right now, take the same dominix to the FIO agent in Cat, and earn ~1300 conversion, average a bit over 70 and never get interrupted, and be sure that if I needed 140 for a new hull right now, I'd be done in the time available.